Started new thread on this subject in the hope of identifying more numbers. With a lot of help from Doug (CBguy) on frame identification I have updated the numbering charts seen on the original thread. A summary of the various numbering systems used by Holdsworth is shown below with more details on Goggle Cloud. This is based on a growing number of frames found on line and information from other websites on the subject. The following are the systems that these numbers seem to fall into. Post war 5 Digit numbers and the continuation of this from 1965.
Early 60's 4 Digit numbers (1962-1964). Shop numbers from 1965 with 1st 2 digits for the year. Early 70's 4 Digit series (with leading zeros) including branded frames.
Results 1 - 36 of 36. Holdsworth 1971 bike frame. A classic Holdsworth Mistral 1971 bike frame. Matching frame and fork serial numbers. Frame dimensions. Wrap over seat stays. Seat tube - centre of BB to top 55cm. Top tube- centre to centre 57cm. Rear drop - 125mm. Collection in person. Or Best Offer.
6 Digit System from 1976. The predictions shown are based on the usage of Factory issued numbers and steady production of 1500 frames per year up to 1961 and 1200 frames per year from 1965 when the shop had its own system. 6 Digit numbers have an increasing yearly production up to 1985. The Framework graphs show how this fits around known fixed points in production and frames with good dates or documents to back up their dates.
There are issues with this mainly around shop frames and others that seem to have taken longer to progress through the factory. There are also a few that show up too early, for which I have no real explanation. I have show these on the graphs to indicate the level of accuracy that can be expected with this approach. Processing For Visual Artists Pdf Converter. All other frames with less clear dating have then been added in where they would occur along with the original description in the Excel sheet. I would be interested in any frame numbers, particularly those with good dates.
Hope this is of interest. Great work Dave! Impressive documentation and a great resource for all for narrowing the year and identifying model with help of catalogs. When I last counted a few days ago there were approx. 200 serial numbers listed on your excel spread sheet. Things are certainly becoming clearer as numbers are added.
THE MORE NUMBERS THE BETTER! I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding) Doug.
Great work Dave! I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding) Doug I have a Holdsworth (proffesional) framed DBS (Norwegian bicycle manufacturer), with four digit frame number 4905, which according to the above could be a 1974 made frame, and probably sold for the 1975 season here in Norway. This year fits well with the decor/decals of the bike and the components mounted.
Some pictures of the bike can be found here. Hallo Dave, It seems that my HW Pro is moving back in time. You may recall that it is a 338xx number which now appears to be 1968 year on the revised listing (from 1969). This is not a problem for myself, and I really appreciate the work which you have put into this problem and how useful it is, but there are comments on other sites which state that chromed forks and tail were only applied in 1970 and after. As mine has been restored and repainted I could wonder whether it authentic for that year. But in actual fact I don't really care about how it looks, it is a great ride and I am proud to be the custodian of it. Thanks again, David.
1969 Holdsworth Team Professional - Record. 1997 Colnago Oval Titanio Art Deco - Chorus. 1999 Raleigh Team Titanium Oval - DuraAce. 2013 Condor Fratello - Ultegra. Great work Dave!
I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding) Doug I have a Holdsworth (proffesional) framed DBS (Norwegian bicycle manufacturer), with four digit frame number 4905, which according to the above could be a 1974 made frame, and probably sold for the 1975 season here in Norway. This year fits well with the decor/decals of the bike and the components mounted. Some pictures of the bike can be found here Thanks, I did have this down, but as 4903, I have corrected it now. Thanks for pointing that out. [quote='CommanderChuff']Hallo Dave, It seems that my HW Pro is moving back in time.
You may recall that it is a 338xx number which now appears to be 1968 year on the revised listing (from 1969). This is not a problem for myself, and I really appreciate the work which you have put into this problem and how useful it is, but there are comments on other sites which state that chromed forks and tail were only applied in 1970 and after. As mine has been restored and repainted I could wonder whether it authentic for that year. But in actual fact I don't really care about how it looks, it is a great ride and I am proud to be the custodian of it. Thanks again, David. 1969 Holdsworth Team Professional - Record.
1997 Colnago Oval Titanio Art Deco - Chorus. 1999 Raleigh Team Titanium Oval - DuraAce. 2013 Condor Fratello - Ultegra.[/quote Thanks, Yes I have looked back over the old thread I don't think I actually specified a year as the accuracy would be a year or two either way. The archive copies I have have this down as 1970 then 1968 as the charts were developed. It is actually shown as such in a graph in one of the replies, I did't pick up on the fact that you were seeing this as 69 at the time. Its interesting about the forks, there are a number of pros in the database around that time I will have a look at them latter see if any conclusions can be drawn.
David and Dave, As you no doubt have read, Kilgariff states in his website that the Holdsworthy factory started Pro production not before 1970. He has a copy of earliest catalogue page in which the date is handwritten as June 1970.
Certainly the factory pro is described as having chrome forks and rear stays. The factory no longer wanted the HC team to be be riding shop pros. Reg Collard had made the first team orange pro in 1967 and as I understand it some riders continued to use their Shop Pros into early 70's.
I am surmising there was increasing tension between the shop and factory during the early 70's culminating in 1975 when Roy Thame was told by the factory to cease labelling shop frames as Holdsworth's. Assuming frame(338xx) has the features of a factory Pro, it is difficult to reconcile as a '68 with what we know of the Factory Pro history only commencing in 1970, despite a serial number and graph that points to c.1968. Key word I guess is circa. Doug PS: Couple pics of your frame on earlier number thread looks like a very nice Pro.
TT cable guides were perhaps added later? Following the above discussion I have pulled out all the Professional frames from this period. As you rightly point out we should not see factory frames before 1970. Also I notice several are dated by nkillgariff including the #'s I highlighted as difficult to reconcile on current graphs, same trend appears. Using these dates and a couple of other good ones a converging trend appears. With doubts around the validity of the remaining dates it is not unreasonable to fit these around this second trend line. At the risk of reading too much into this, is it possible for a delay in production of these frames that gradually reduces?
It would be reasonable to plot the pro's on a separate trend during this time. Any thoughts?
Vincent Motorcycle Misc Information Vincent Technical Sections: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincent Motorcycle - Miscellaneous Information A collection of communications dealing with tidbits of information that may or may not be true or accurate but are enjoyable to read. Minor condensation and editing. Scroll down for Max Lambky's Restoration Tips.
An entire series of Great Tech Articles. 2/24/10 Recomissioning a stored Vincent: With rocker caps removed, also the big end quill and cylinder feed quil, and the long forward banjo bolt on the timing cover removed. And of course the main feed banjo bolt feeding the oil pump itself, ie at the bottom end of the large feed oil line, this loosened off before pouring oil into the tank above. Using a lever type oil can one begins by pumping a half dozen full strokes down each of all four pushrods tubes thus flooding the cam lobes and followers. This later drains down into the sump to be returned more quickly by the pump. Then before replacing the rocker caps you shoot a stroke over the top of each rocker arm to oil the inner rocker contact tips and thrust pads, and the lower valve stem and guide.
In all near a pint can be injected by these means described above. All to the good in a dry motor. Next one inserts the oil can spout through the forwards banjo bolt opening deeply enough to deliver oil into the filter element housing and pumps that at least half full, soaking the filter and cutting down on the time it takes before delivery of oil begins to the rods etc upon startup. Replace that banjo bolt. Refill your oil can. Then you can fill the connecting rod big ends via the feed quill bore, even easier to simply do so via the small screw opening in the end of the quill, delivered through a clean shop rag, one layer across the opening to act as a seal.
Here you can load up the timing cover passages via the top feed quill beneath the dome nut, replace. With the forwards big feed line banjo now loosened off by several turns a shallow pan is placed below to catch the oil lost in the next all important step. Pour into the empty oil tank at least 2 or even 3 quarts of good oil, I prefer Valvoline Racing 20 / 50 wt, and watch it arrive down below. Expect to see it blowing out air bubbles and what ever it's driving ahead of the fresh stuff before finally exiting as a clear solid stream into the drip pan below. Only then snug up the banjo bolt, knowing that you have provided fresh oil right to the oil pump entry port. Check the transmission level and the primary chain case contents, draining off any excess via the level plug.
That covers the motors immediate needs for firing up after long storage or being rebuilt. Best to remove the spark plugs and rotate the motor before starting.
( Sid 2/22/2012) I noted years ago that most copper, steel, or SS oil pipes did not mate up with the rocker feed banjos very well, and like Jack, thought that a flexible pipe would allow the mating joint to self-align. Program Latihan Fisik Futsal Skills on this page. I also noted that the standard pipe is prone to interfering with a plug spanner, and usually coming off worst. I happened to have a good handful of old oil pipes in my 'come in handy' pile, battered in various ways and not fit for use 'as is', but selected the ones with restorable banjos that had at least 3/4' of reasonable oil pipe still attached. I fettled the upper and lower faces by rubbing on wet-and-dry emery paper, cut the pipes down to 3/4' and made them round again, then made a flexible section to fill the gaps. Obviously the ends with a threaded gland nut received either a suitable cut-off pipe end, or a new end. The pipe is from a UK company, Vehicle Wiring Products, and is SS overbraided fuel/oil pipe, fitted with SS ferrules crimped on. The pipe is a tight fit, and the ferrules even tighter, requiring much fiddling and often blood as the strands of SS go through the skin very easily.
The crimp is probably unnecessary, but I am a belt-and-braces person. (For our colonial friends, you might say belt-and-suspenders, but to the English, suspenders hold up stockings on a lady's thigh). I made all the pipes a bit longer than the originals, which arcs the pipe upwards, and leaves room for the plug spanner. It now does not matter if you do hit it with the spanner, it just moves. All the banjos now sit down flat with ease, and, coupled with sealing rings around the ET189 washer and the Monobloc hybrid bolts, I have no oil leaks from that overhead section of the oil system.
Richard Sherwin 2/1/2012.